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  1. #21

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    The rules for points judging of modified cars have been changed in an effort to better reflect the genre. The judging committee and board detrmined, rightly so, that the same criteria cannot be used for restored cars and modified cars.

    Any marque club (POCI, Studebaker Drivers Club, etc.) will be made up of people who prefer one style of car within that brand, sometimes to the personal exclusion of the others. At POCI conventions, I'm sure there are members who don't even walk down the aisles featuring the kinds of cars they dislike, but still in the overall scheme of Pontiacdom, we all appreciate Pontiacs (and Oaklands and GMCs, also at various levels and styles).

    Regarding the term "preservation" in the bylaws, couldn't it rightly be argued that if someone rescues a junked Pontiac and puts it back on the road, even as a street rod, that he has preserved that car - at least as opposed to allowing it to be scrapped?

    Thanks for all of your input and exchange of ideas on this subject.
    Alan Mayes
    Tullahoma, TN
    Southern Division Director
    1961 Ventura 2-door kustom

  2. #22

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    Hi Frosty, back again to clarify myself. Since we got no reply from club higher-ups it appears I defended their modified credibility so well they did not feel the need. In that I think I have made myself misunderstood; I am firmly NOT a modified fan, and in fact my initial point was meant to be that the "revolution" you called for has already happened. Will tie it all into the points below in response to your own:

    1. By-laws. Sounds like we agree that no one is stopping inclusion of modifed cars (quite the opposite IMO). You have a point about the by-laws being used as a weapon in a legal battle, but I think we also agree that is pretty unlikely for a hobby club, see my take on your own item #2 below for that. As far as more being done to accomodate modified cars, I guess this language could be modified to cover it on paper, but in reality I truly do not know how more could be done without banning original cars entirely.

    2. The unappreciated rising up. I am truly shocked that you and Pete and Alan feel somehow discrimninated against, I would never have thought that, since my observation for years has (correctly) been that street rod interest has been soaring and interest in authentic cars (especially Pontiacs) has been fading. Frankly, I am the one who has felt increasingly discriminated against every year and in fact have been seriously considering leaving the club because of it. My outlook is that (a) the entire board and all POCI material has been taken over by street rodders (b) my local chapter is all about street rods (c) my long time dream of showing my own restored 1957 Star Chief for points at the national convention has been delayed so long that I am convinced no one is left to appreciate it anyway. A large group of old timers in POCI left to form a Pontiac AACA chapter as a response and I am one of the only ones left here. Just watch, I will likely have but one defender here on the site. So to sum up, I think your observation that someone will just quit rather than fight is correct, but I am here to tell you that is happening to the OTHER side, MY side, not yours.

    3. Judging. No further point to make. Again, if there is a rules problem it can be fixed and there are plenty of people ready to do anything to accomodate more modified cars. But I am not involved in that.

    Snobs & bigots. They may be out there somewhere, and nobody likes someone who seems to look down on them. But as for Pontiac "purists" who would sneer at a street rod, I don't seem to see any anymore. But I do see lots of guys who enjoy saying things like "it takes a real man to cut one up", don't you? No snobbery, just sheer disrespect right there on a T shirt. So that's where I am coming from--the revolution is already over, you won, I lost, no further legislation needed. Todd C

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Southeast MI
    Posts
    100

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    Hi Todd, franky I didn't expect a reply from any of the higher ups. I sent the POCI executive board an email about something else awhile ago. Jim Felkner's email system sent me an automated response saying that it considered my email to be "spam" and was deleting it from his inbox (it wasn't). So I would have been pleasantly surprised to actually see a real response.

    Your points about the by-laws is well taken. I still think the legitimacy aspect has to be there to protect everyone involved though.

    I am surprised to see you respond to about you being discriminated against in POCI. I can see your point as well. I think POCI has to have a balance between stock and modifieds - I am not looking to overwelm it to one side or the other. Since POCI is dedicated to perserving Pontiac history, to that end, we must continue to encourage some level of stock and survivor classes and judging. That is the only way to help preserve some portion of our history for future generations.

    As far as having a defender, you might be surprised that I might be one of them. Frankly I would love to see your '57 - even if it still a work in progress. Like I said, I can appreciate what someone goes through to restore and maintain a car like this...especially when parts and parts cars are scarce and not being reproduced. Don't sell your dream short either. People will appreciate it for what it is, especially if you have some stories to go along with it (we all have some anyways).

    I agree with you on the judging.

    I agree that no one likes people looking down upon them, period. There has got to be tolerance and respect for both camps from both camps. The attitide that "it takes a real man to cut one up" comes from the Ford camp more than the POCI camp. I won't disagree with you that there are people in POCI who do take that attitude as well. I do know a couple of guys in my chapter that do take this attitude. However, they own a custom body and paint shop, so that is also their living and passion too. However, I have seen this to be especially true with Fords since there is plentiful old Ford tin out there (plus all the fiberglass and metal reproduction companies that are out there selling "new" '32s - for example). I seldom see a Pontiac street rod vs. the plentiful Fords and some Chevys for the same pre-war era.

    Look at it this way, there maybe a small revolution or war occuring, but I am not willing to declare victory. You have invested 23 years with POCI, I imagine you have a ton of passion in your gut to fight for the balance you seek as well. Are you willing to admit defeat? I think this discussion proves that you are not.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by frosty View Post
    I am surprised to see you respond to about you being discriminated against in POCI.

    As far as having a defender, you might be surprised that I might be one of them. Frankly I would love to see your '57 - even if it still a work in progress. Like I said, I can appreciate what someone goes through to restore and maintain a car like this...especially when parts and parts cars are scarce and not being reproduced. Don't sell your dream short either. People will appreciate it for what it is, especially if you have some stories to go along with it (we all have some anyways).

    Are you willing to admit defeat? I think this discussion proves that you are not.
    WELL isn't this interesting....like many political differences it seems with a little thoughtful discussion we can be closer together than our heated opening statements would indicate. Our discussion has actually made me feel a little better, thank you for your comments. Take a look at the attached for the 1957 which is moving toward completion with all the trim and taillights now installed.

    Next to it is my "closeted" Pontiac, a fake 1963 Grand Prix convertible. It came to me in 1982 in near junk shape with all the Grand Prix trim already installed, so it caused me a bit of confusion then. It was of course really a Catalina convertible, PHS data indicates it was originally a 2bbl with 3 on the tree, so it was impractical to change back and actually the great lines of the convertible make one think they should have produced them. I would not condone someone modifying their own now, of course, but this one was what it was and is what it is. And I guess as street rod people are fond of saying, if not for me it would have just went to the junkyard.

    Am I too passionate to admit defeat? I do not know, my new friend, you may have more faith in me than I do. Thanks for the conversation and good luck with your Pontiacs too, just don't do too much "butchering" and I will try not to be a snob (smile) Todd C

    PS--regarding reply from higher ups, most are on this forum regularly, including the president, chief judge, tech advisor coordinator and Smoke Signals editor. Now if they REPLY or not we will see....
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by poci1957; May 14th, 2010 at 17:30.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Blackstock Ont. Canada
    Posts
    436

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    I'll just add my 4 cents worth here, as I said before I'll go look at a restored at a show & can appr. the hours of work put into it. I can't understand why they can't appr. the work we put into ours. When we were at POCI conv. in 2005 I over heard one member, who had a top point car in trailer, refer to our 2+2 sitting in hotel parking lot, as a "non stock piece of junk" while we were having breakfast, well I nearly lost it,but my wife was giving me the "look" to "let it go" don't start something when your a guest in their country. Our "piece of junk" was DRIVEN to South Carolina from Ontario Canada!! Can he say that, NO, That's the attitude we are talking about, If it ain't stock, it's junk, this isn't coming from the "higher" up as stated, it's coming from members, & from the rest of the conversation I heard that morning, he was going to be "some ****ed off" if he didn't win his class!!! Winning isn't everything, I'll bet he never walked around to look at the other cars??? all I can say is "GET A LIFE"
    Pete Barber 64 2+2 Htp. Due to budget cuts, the light at the end of the tunnel has been "TURNED OFF"

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Portland In
    Posts
    781

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    Pete, I've heard that before and made my point and argued with the wife later.

    I buy these cars to drive, the only one I have that's capable of being points judged is my 98 Bonnie, It's got 22k on it. I'd rather have seat time than polish time any day of the week. Most of my cars look stock but are modded in the chassis / drivetrain depts. I prefer the patina look as I don't have to waste time washing them and survivor's turn my crank.

    If you like trailer queens that's fine but don't rip on my drivers, I'll guarantee they've passed on more positve memories to my kids than your queen ever has to yours.

    Mike

    BTW, I'm currently a Board of Directors Representative so there's the answer to question above regarding BOD veiws on Modifieds.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Blackstock Ont. Canada
    Posts
    436

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    Ya I hear you Mike, I would have liked to give him "one upside the head" but as I said "I was a guest in your country" & didn't need the agravation of a assault charge!!! I was pleased with the number of people that were "amazed" that we drove the car from Canada, but did find it some what funny, that a lot of people had no idea how far Canada was from U S!!! Some asked if it was a weeks drive, & couldn't believe it was a 2 day drive from our "neck of the woods" I think we know more about our "cousins" to the south than you know about us?????
    Pete Barber 64 2+2 Htp. Due to budget cuts, the light at the end of the tunnel has been "TURNED OFF"

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Portland In
    Posts
    781

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    Pete some people aren't overly educated in places that don't reside in their neighborhood / comfort zone. I've travelled N/A east of the Mississippi extensively including crossing that 1/8th inch line on the map to Canada more than once. I've not been there since the need for a passport became manditory, I'll be back someday tho. It's pretty country up there.

    I get some shocked looks when I tell people I drive my cars daily in nice weather. As I said above, that's why I buy them not to polish paint. My kids get a lot of seat time in vintage iron, whether it's a pickup, tractor or a car. I look at it this way, It was state of the art tech when it was new and they drove them daily then what's changed? Nothing but the thinking of it's an OLD car. If it's maintained it doesn't make a damned bit of difference how old it is.

    Mike

  9. #29
    022561 Guest

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    Hi Mike, I don't see why your getting upset because as you said you and the BOD views are already in your favor. Do you know of any purist on the BOD's? I think if you want this to all come out good for people who think the way you do you should push to change the mission statement. Consider someone coming to the club and reading all about restoration, preservation and value of history and thinking this is the place for me becausing I'm into stock cars only to find something different. Now look at it this way, A guy comes into a club with a modified car and reads preservation- restoration- importance of history and says I can live with that, I'm looking for a standard for correctness so I know how these cars are produced ( that would be me ) or a guy comes in and says I want to push my idea or vision of a Pontiac ( that is not me). To the guy who wants to push his own ideas and wonders why people get upset and then gets upset himself is like the guy who joined the army to get a education and then gets upset when the army sends him off to war because he didn't read his obligation and heard only all the good things the recruter told him.
    What I think you should do is think about this for a while and then have the whole club membership have a vote for which way to go. That way if they want these type of vehicles the club can amend the mission statement to reflect what the club really does and stands for. Either way it goes you must live within the existing framework.



    A note for all the higher up people in this organization; take some leadership and get involved in this discussion, stop laying low and hoping this will all go away, your just acting like our current governmemt is doing about immigration (nothing) and letting a State do your work for you. Take our votes whichever it goes and follow through so we know where the club stands. Then we can make up our own minds to stay or not.

    On # 11 of this thread I asked Alain if he wanted my opinion ( different subject and more to the original question) of why the modified chapter had so few people. Well he must of read it but just skipped over it to #12 by Pete. Hardly the act of a responsible director. Thanks a bunch.
    Don
    Last edited by 022561; May 15th, 2010 at 23:47.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Portland In
    Posts
    781

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    Don, I'm not even close to being upset. I do take offense at some attitudes that have been thrown my way from time to time.

    In my OPINION we need to be more concerned with preservation of the Pontiac Motor Division products regardless of their use or state of [or lack of] restoration..

    I've not sat on the BOD long enough to comment on other's attitudes. I will say that I know more than one Director owns at least one Modified car.


    MIke Nixon

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