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frosty
December 16th, 2008, 10:19
I own a '72 Lemans Sport Convertible with the Endura sport package. It's a great car. What surprises me is the lack of badging on this car. It has Pontiac on the front grill, dash, and trunk lid. Nowhere does it state "Lemans" or "Lemans Sport" like the 71 models did.

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee33/frostydjc/LeMans/P1010025.jpg

I have a 1:18th scale 72 Lemans Sport convertible that sold at the 2004 GTOAA convention. It too lacks the Lemans badging. All catalogs like YearOne also don't show a Lemans Sport emblem for 1972.

My question is why did Pontiac do this? Cost savings? This car is often thought to be a GTO by the casual observer.

022561
February 13th, 2009, 13:14
Hi Frosty, You should have a Le Mans script on the front fenders between the wheel house and the door. Mind you it just says Le Mans and not LeMans Sport.

Don

022561
February 13th, 2009, 13:25
Frosty, I forgot to mention that when G.M. started using stick-on script, some cars ( like my Olds in 76) sometimes either because of shortage or the line was moving too fast the things got left off. This couldn't happen with the older cars as the fender or door or rear quarter was pre-drilled for the script. I don't know when they started using the stick on type.

Don

frosty
February 17th, 2009, 10:24
Thanks Don

I would agree that this would be correct for '71 for sure. However, I can't find any mention of a Lemans or Lemans Sport emblem listed for use in '72. In fact, YearOne does not list a '72 emblem for the Lemans.

Rather confusing. Do you know if it is shown on the factory shop manual or body manual?

Mike Nixon
February 17th, 2009, 11:25
Thanks Don

I would agree that this would be correct for '71 for sure. However, I can't find any mention of a Lemans or Lemans Sport emblem listed for use in '72. In fact, YearOne does not list a '72 emblem for the Lemans.

Rather confusing. Do you know if it is shown on the factory shop manual or body manual?

That's not surprising coming from Year One. They're more of a Chevy vendor.

Try Performance Years or Ames. You'll be a LOT happier with the service and the price. If you call P/Y ask for Stacy and tell her I sent you. She's a good girl and will do her best to help you.

Mike

022561
February 17th, 2009, 14:56
Hi Frosty, Ames performance Engineering sells both the Le Mans & the Le Mans Sport script for 1972. I have a older catalog, but it's # is G21 and is page 49 in the ft trim section. I have used this company for years and they are very good people. If you think you have a hard time finding parts try a 2311 62 post. Even harder would be a 1975-1979 Ventura-Phoneix.

Good luck,

Don

frosty
February 18th, 2009, 09:36
Thanks for the recommendations Don.

I have purchased parts from just about everyone before, YearOne, Paddock, OPGI, Performance Years (I have a Pypes exhaust in fact), Ames, Classic Industries and NPD. I do try to keep up checking everyone's prices. You almost have to these days!!!

OK - so my next question is this. Assuming that the Lemans badge goes on the Sport convertibles, would it still go on the car if it had the Endura GTO front end, and air vents in the front fender? Since that is how my car is.

I can see the Lemans badging if the car has the stock Lemans chrome bumper, front end, and regular fenders. Does the Endura/GTO front clip force the badging to be deleted or not?

Here is a picture of the car. You may have to look hard to find the car in the background.

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee33/frostydjc/LeMans/LemansGirl.jpg

022561
February 18th, 2009, 14:43
Hi Frosty, The only information I have for the 1972 LeMans sport convertible only shows it with a chrome bumper and it is constituted a totally separate sub-series, the D67 Le Mans sport series. According to PMD engineering records there was a sport model and a sport option both of which was totally different. The only thing that I have information on pertaining to the endura bumper would be for the hardtop model called LeMans Hardtop with available styling options (they were inferring body style # 2D37 with Endura-nose option and special scooped hood installed.The endura nose cost $41.00 and scooped hood sold for $56.00. Both features could be added to any LeMans hardtop or coupe as a pair. The nose ALONE came on all LeMans except wood trimmed wagons. The scooped hood -alone- came for all Coupes & Hardtops, and for (Here we go) Convertables with 455 H-O engines. A 455 H-O rag top with both styling options are possible ! Is this what you have??
The only picture I have of the convertible is one with a chrome bumper and the script is in the position of the front fender is like I said before. The script says LeMans Sport. The picture I have for the 2D37 with the endura option is too dark for me to make out if it has script, but I would assume it would.
Hope this helps,

Don

Mike Nixon
February 18th, 2009, 14:54
I thought the T-41 cars had the script on the 1/4's.

There was a sport floating around here about 10-15 yrs ago and that's the way it was. It was an endura car.

Mike

022561
February 18th, 2009, 22:42
Mike, all 71 LeMans have the LeMans script on the rear Quarters and gills on the front fenders aft of the wheelhouse, The 71 T37 has it's badge where the gills are on the LeMans. All 72's are on the front fender aft of the wheelhouse.

Don

frosty
February 19th, 2009, 11:25
Don/Mike

The Endura nose, hood, and fenders are original. I have the original sticker plus the PHS do***entation to back that up. The car was built with a 350-2bbl that a previous owner swapped out for a non-HO 455 (so much for numbers matching) at some point in time. The car had the 455 when I bought it in 1995.

If you know of a pair of unused and unloved (and preferrable cheap) HO heads are - call me !!!!!!

So you can see my dilemna here. The fact that GMP diecast produced a limited edition '72 Lemans convertible also without a Lemans logo leads me to beleive that the lack of badging is correct for the Sport convertible with the Endura package. I will also agree to the argument that GMP could have gotten it wrong and that the diecast simply looks better this way. Still....

http://www.gmpdiecast.com/products/details.cfm?ProductNumber=8049&category=Archive%20Muscle%20Cars

022561
February 19th, 2009, 17:14
Frosty, I believe the badges belong on the car.

Don

frosty
February 20th, 2009, 10:00
Thanks Don.

Do you happen to have any diagrams or descriptions where it would go since the louvers would force it in a slightly different location than the non-louvered fenders? Ideally, I could find it in the shop or service manual, but I don't. Again, part of my problem.

022561
February 20th, 2009, 12:14
Frosty, All of the pictures I have for 1972's do not show gills at all. They are on 71 models.
I have a couple of questions for you. Are the engine codes the same for all Pontiacs? I bought a 1969 LeMans Hardtop coupe new in 1969 (actually Dec 1968) I special ordered it with a 330 h.p. 350 H-O with a M-40 turbo hydro 400 and am trying to find the engine code. I believe it is a L76 code. my original window sticker is so old I can't see it. Another interesting note is about 30 years ago I spun a rod bearing and I removed the engine & replaced it with a 455. Here is the next question since I am the original owner (and also the present owner) the engine was never worked on except by me and a friend who did the PDI at the dealer when new. Any road even though I wasn't going to use the engine I took the pan off to see which bearing spun and found this 350 with four bolt main caps. I have never seen another stock 350 H-O with these caps. I do remember a article in Super Stock magazine of a F stock 69 Firebird with a 350 and used 4 bolt caps from the 400, but that was a Royal Pontiac and the dealer installed those caps. Have any ideas??

Don

Mike Nixon
February 20th, 2009, 14:23
Frosty, All of the pictures I have for 1972's do not show gills at all. They are on 71 models.
I have a couple of questions for you. Are the engine codes the same for all Pontiacs? I bought a 1969 LeMans Hardtop coupe new in 1969 (actually Dec 1968) I special ordered it with a 330 h.p. 350 H-O with a M-40 turbo hydro 400 and am trying to find the engine code. I believe it is a L76 code. my original window sticker is so old I can't see it. Another interesting note is about 30 years ago I spun a rod bearing and I removed the engine & replaced it with a 455. Here is the next question since I am the original owner (and also the present owner) the engine was never worked on except by me and a friend who did the PDI at the dealer when new. Any road even though I wasn't going to use the engine I took the pan off to see which bearing spun and found this 350 with four bolt main caps. I have never seen another stock 350 H-O with these caps. I do remember a article in Super Stock magazine of a F stock 69 Firebird with a 350 and used 4 bolt caps from the 400, but that was a Royal Pontiac and the dealer installed those caps. Have any ideas??

Don


Don, Several years ago, when I was still in the dealership I pulled downj a 69 lemans 'vert with 4bolt mains. It was a 4bbl car but not an HO.

Around the same time I had a 350 HO engine and it was a 4 bolt main also.

Mike

022561
February 20th, 2009, 15:25
Mike, according to all my information all 350 4bbl engines and 326 4bbls are listed as H-O engines, and in 1970 and later you couldn't get a 350 with a 4bbl.

Don

Mike Nixon
February 21st, 2009, 14:16
Neither of these cars had HO callouts under the hood or anywhere on the car.

They also had STD manifolds. I swapped out an engine ina 67 or 8 Bird that had the HO callouts, was in oem paint and it had the R/A style of exhaust manifolds on it. The other 2 didn't. I didn't pull the pan on the bird engine so i can't say if it did or didn't have 4 bolt main caps.

Mike

022561
February 21st, 2009, 19:50
Mike, I have never seen any H-O badge in the engine compartment or service manual. The term H-O was always used in sales brochure's for the 326 and 350 4bbl engines. The service manual refers to 400" and 428" H-O engines.The owners manual for 1969 refers to only one H-O engine and that is the 428H-O. All 350 H-O engines use the standard exhaust manifold with no exhaust control valve. You can tell the 350 4bbl was a H-O engine (even though it dosen't say H-O) by the used of main and connecting rod bearings. Moraine 400 bearings are used on 350-400 & 428 H-O engines. a 350 2bbl or 400 2bbl uses moraine 100's. In 1969 all 350-400-428 H-O's and RA111 use # 48 headcast with 2.11 intake and 1.77 exhaust. A 350 2bbl uses a # 47 headcast and 1.96 intake and 1.66 exhaust.

Don

frosty
March 2nd, 2009, 08:19
Thanks Don.

Do you happen to have any diagrams or descriptions where it would go since the louvers would force it in a slightly different location than the non-louvered fenders? Ideally, I could find it in the shop or service manual, but I don't. Again, part of my problem.


Frosty, All of the pictures I have for 1972's do not show gills at all. They are on 71 models.

Don


That's my problem. All the pictures I have seen of '71 and '72 Lemans Sport convertibles show the non-louvered front fenders and steel chrome bumper/non-Endura front end. No factory diagram that I can find shows the Endura front end and the correct location for the "Lemans" or "Sport" emblems.

toppop52
May 31st, 2009, 07:36
My Uncle bought a new '72 LeMans Sport with Endura front, it was a a 455 a/t car. It had no fender script. It would not have fit proerly anyway with the fender vents.

frosty
June 10th, 2009, 12:25
Thanks for confirming that for me, toppop52! I have suspected that this is the case with the Endura front end and vented fenders. There are dang few '72 Lemans Sport Convertibles out there to verify it against.

Thanks for the help !